What Makes for a Mutually Beneficial Brand Partnership 🤝
According to a VP of Marketing AND Indie Podcaster
Hello Besties!
Lately, I’ve been spending a lot of time noodling on potential brand partnerships and how those can be win-win, so I’m very stoked about the Q&A this week. Adam McNeil has experience on both sides of the brand deal handshake — as the VP of Marketing for a scrappy startup called Füm AND an indie podcaster himself. He’s going to give us the scoop on how to create a mutually beneficial partnership from both perspectives. Let’s dive in and learn how to turbocharge our brand pitches.
You’re currently the VP of Marketing for Füm. First of all, what is Füm?
AM: In short, Füm is the better, safer, and natural way to quit smoking. Füm is a wooden inhaler that incorporates plant oils to simulate the oral sensation of smoking but without the negatives–no smoke, no vape, and no nicotine.
Füm combines plant science, behavioral psychology, and beautiful design to make quitting smoking and vaping suck less.
A big part of your marketing strategy has been advertising on podcasts. When did Füm get started in the space, why have you pursued this form of advertising over more mainstream marketing, and what makes the brand a good fit for podcast advertising?
AM: I’d say podcasting pursued us. It began with a network reaching out to us after they had another smoking cessation brand on their network. We had been looking for a new way to get our brand out there, and we figured this was worth the test. In hindsight, podcasting makes sense for us because we’re not “generic.” There aren’t many brands in a similar space to us taking up attention, which I think is important to podcast success, unlike some other advertising platforms.
What was Füm’s initial foray into podcast advertising, and what did you learn from that?
AM: Honestly, it was on a whim and invitation. We spent $3,000 across two shows with little expectations. Surprisingly, they were both immediately profitable (which rarely ever happens).
The one show performed extraordinarily and gave us the evidence to say this was a channel we could invest into — and we still advertise with them over a year later, and they’re a consistent top performer. Over the past year and $200k+ spend across 50+ shows and 200+ episodes, I’m beginning to get a grasp on what works and what doesn’t. The #1 marker of success? The host has influence. Genuine influence. The genre, demographics, and production quality all come second to whether or not the host commands listenership from their audience. And this, in particular, is hard to identify as every host believes they have it.
I deep dive into the BTS of shows, especially if they’re larger. Do they live stream and get good viewership? Do they have a thriving Patreon? These are both decent markers of a paying, engaged audience.
How do you determine the effectiveness of a podcast advertising campaign? What metrics do you use? Any key ingredients that tend to get great results?
AM: We use a variety of tools to measure performance: Coupon codes, link clicks, post-purchase survey (Enquire labs is a must!), and third-party tracking (we use Chartable, but Podsights is also great). We can see individual performance more clearly and make better judgments with these tools combined.
However, I think most of us podcast advertisers still recognize the need for a gut score. We look at the quality of production, the renewal rates of other advertisers, and product/audience fit before jumping on the show. I’ve often found that it’s mid-tier produced shows that perform the best for us. Not low-production and not over the top (they often cost too much to get a return).
What makes a podcast a good fit for Füm? What do you love to see from an ad or partnership from the brand perspective?
AM: Trust and influence are #1 in my books, hands-down. We sell a product that people are unfamiliar with, the concept is generally new to many, and we’re targeting a sensitive topic where many consumers have failed previously. So we have to work hard to earn trust. This is why host-endorsed reads are best for us.
With some of our longer partnerships, we share customer feedback from listeners that the show has referred. Hosts then often incorporate that feedback into future reads. Those perform really well!
For us, it’s kinda odd. We don’t require our hosts to have been smokers or have a past smoking history, as we can all be advocates. In fact, two-thirds of our top-performing annual shows are not and never have been smokers but believe in what we’re doing to the core.
We love the added value some hosts provide, like blogs, social posts, organic mentions in other episodes, especially when a guest mentions that they smoke.
I’m sure you get pitches from podcasters who want to work with Füm. What’s your advice for successfully pitching brands?
AM: We do get a few pitches, but not as many as people might imagine ( please send me more!). I love seeing people take the initiative. When pitching, get real with me. Don’t tell me your rates or past partnerships in your first email; instead, tell me why you care about what we’re doing and how we could benefit your audience. We can figure out the details after.
This bias stems from my history working with IG/TikTok/Youtube influencers. I hate the cold email with metrics and rates — so tasteless and transactional, ugh.
Genuine reach outs tend to perform well for us too, so I’m honestly more likely to say yes. If you are a user of our product and have quit with us, the likelihood of me saying yes is pretty high.
You’re an indie podcaster yourself! You run and host The Brewview podcast. Tell me about your show, why you started it, what you love (or don’t love!) about podcasting, and how you approach marketing for and advertising on your own podcast.
AM: I love podcasting to the core. As a host, advertiser, and avid listener. Ironically, I didn’t know I started a podcast until 3-4 months into it.
For context, I love coffee, and I play a traditional Japanese game called Kendama (fancy ball and cup). It was the dawn of Covid in 2020, and I went live on IG to brew and review a bag of coffee sent to me by one of my favorite Kendama brands. I called it a “Brewview.” I had like four live viewers over the 30-60 minutes, and we mostly just talked. At the end, they said I should do it again next week but with a different coffee and a guest to talk about the state of Kendama. And it kind of just evolved out of demand and people in Kendama needing a sense of community.
It grew to around 1,000 weekly listens/downloads, and some episodes are hitting over 100-200 concurrent live viewers. We secured a lot of free merch from brands. It gave me a massive platform to start an event in Calgary, get sponsored, and drive revenue to my personal brand “Cafe Kendama.” We did roughly $20,000 CAD in revenue across affiliate sales, brands sponsorships, and merch sales, and that can almost exclusively be tied back the podcast.
I’ve put it on pause for a bit as work at Füm has taken over, but behind the scenes, I’m working on a seasonal mini-series I think my audience is going to geek over.
Coming from both perspectives, what makes for a mutually beneficial brand partnership?
AM: The less transactional, the better. Podcast advertising is the same as working with influencers. It’s people. We need to treat podcasters like people, and podcasters need to treat brands like people. When you want each other to win, you will win more often.
Podcasters, don’t be afraid to give more to secure a relationship. An unsolicited tweet or mention about a brand you work with means more than you know. That stuff has saved relationships for us and has helped us create long-term sponsorships.
Brands, share your numbers. I share all our stats with podcasters/networks. It shows them how they are doing, and it’s also great for negotiating rates that actually work for us and can keep us sponsoring a show. It’s made for some excellent network relationships on our end. I hate keeping secrets and pretending like I have all the cards.
You mentioned that you’re launching a beta program for indie podcasters to get sponsorships… I’m excited to learn more. Anything you can share at this stage?
AM: A little backstory — with my personal podcast, I reached out to my favorite coffee brand for my first sponsor. It was a perfect fit, and I wanted to prove it. So I agreed to an affiliate model at first, so there was virtually 0 risk to the brand. Little to say, I blew their socks off. Drove over $5k revenue in the first month on a show doing less than 1,000 downloads per episode at the time.
From a brand perspective, that’s nuts. If I charged an industry-standard CPM of $25, I would have charged $100 for a month of reads (4 eps) and drove them a 50x return. The commission model was better for me, and I knew it. I was able to leverage it into flat payments for episodes far above industry standard because I had stats to back it up that were relevant for other brands.
We are building an accelerator program for indie podcasts like mine who get everything they need to prove it under a commission model that takes the risk away from us as a brand. At the end of a 3-4 episode sponsorship under a commission model, we would provide a full breakdown of performance, notes, and areas for improvement and, if it makes sense, a flat payment offer for a longer-term partnership. Or, take the data to another brand and get that sponsorship you are stoked for.
It’s a huge win for creators, and it makes it easier for me to work with indie podcasters doing great work that goes unnoticed. It worked for me, and I’d love to see it work for 100s of other podcasters.
Anything else you’d like to add?
AM: I live and die in the podcast community. I am here to see it grow and see a generation of podcasters making a living doing what they love–telling stories. Connect with me, share your story, pitch me your show! Let’s make cool stuff happen.
Thank you, Adam!
➡️ Stay up to date with Adam McNeil and all things Füm on Twitter.
➡️ Check out an episode of Adam’s The Brewview podcast.
How To Compete When Audiences Are Listening To the Same Podcasts - Tom Webster, the Senior Vice President of Edison Research, wrote this piece with lots of good nuggets about how to stand out when data shows most podcast listening is to a relatively small number of shows. Pair that with Edison’s Infinite Dial 2022 study, and you’ll find some vital data intel for the industry.
Behind The Scenes: Spotify’s Editorial Curation Process - Spotify shares how their selection process works, from specific qualities they look for to extra steps creators can take to make an impression.
How to Build Your Audience As an Indie Podcaster - I loved this Blind Landing Q&A about how they were able to reach listeners and garner impressive press as an indie podcast from the latest edition of Clare Wiley’s The Audio Storyteller newsletter.
Five Unconventional Tips for Growing a Podcast - This article from the Rephonic blog summarizes tips podcast host Steph Smith used to grow her pod Sh*t You Don’t Learn in School to 15K downloads a month in under two years. Super interesting read!
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I’m thrilled that this week’s Play It Forward comes from one of my former students, Michele Baci! She recommends:
Sad in the City: Dating in the City with Erica Spera
In this episode with guest Taylor Tomlinson, “two comedians discuss the trials and tribulations of becoming friends outside of work when they have busy adult lives and mental health issues.”
Damn, that’s relatable. Michele also recommends this doubly relatable episode of her podcast Therapy Roulette, where she interviews guests about mental health, but “in a comedy way. It’s not therapy, but it’s close enough!” And the guest in this episode is another former student, Ama Scriver.
Setting Boundaries Online and IRL w/ Ama Scriver
“It’s a collab between myself and my podcast classmate Ama! We attempt to intellectualize pop culture, criticize a bad therapist, and discuss the vitality of boundary setting. It’s a very real conversation, and we cover a lot of ground.”
I love to see former students collab! Thanks for submitting, Michele. Now it’s your turn…
➡️ Here’s the link to submit for future editions.
So… ROLL CALL! 🗣
What’s the dream brand partnership for your podcast?
Follow me @courtneykocak on Twitter and Instagram. For more, check out my website courtneykocak.com.