Hey Besties!
I launched a new show since our last communication. The season 4 reboot of PayPal’s Never Stand Still podcast is now trickling out into the world. CEO and host Dan Schulman was a pleasure to work with, I learned a lot from Pacific Content as far as marketing and launch strategy goes (more on that in future issues), and I’m really proud of where we landed with the creative. Oh yeah, and it was baby’s first time in Variety! Often, producers and other crew are omitted from press coverage, so it was nice to be acknowledged. With just a week or so of post-production left, I look forward to taking a break to reinvest in my own projects, so today’s interview is the perfect inspo.
Have you ever heard a podcast consistently feature one big brand sponsor and thought, “How did they make that happen?!” Well, I interviewed author, speaker, and podcaster Jay Acunzo to get the scoop ⬇️
When you started this podcast, how did you position yourself to attract sponsors early on? Did you begin with the intention of landing one main sponsor?
JA: To be honest, I didn’t start Unthinkable with sponsors in mind as a viable revenue source. It launched in 2016 for two reasons: to create a public aeration vehicle for my ideas (and collect stories and insights around the problem I was exploring ahead of my first book) and to get more reps and reach as a public speaker (since paid keynote speaking was quickly becoming my top revenue driver).
But because I positioned the show early on as a journey to solve one big problem facing my audience, and because I told stories and produced an experience not typically found among the very rote business niche, I was able to create such a passionate audience that two things happened about 50 episodes in.
First, executives who had appeared on the show and enjoyed the experience and final episodes began asking if I could develop and host shows for their companies too. That extended my public platform beyond what I could do with my own show and channels. So that became a big driver of revenue for me as well. All total, I helped pilot a dozen series in two years and hosted several.
Second, the audience provided such a passionate outpouring of support via email and social that, despite being small, provided me a powerful sales tool to close sponsors today. The companies I appeal to are B2B and want to reach a discerning, premium group of decision-makers. I can show a sponsor screenshots of emotional and/or strategic conversations I’m having with my listeners. That is both the audience they hope to reach AND the level of trust they want to have with them in order to build their own brands.
I’m not selling brand awareness. I’m selling brand affinity. I don’t need a huge audience. I need a passionate one.
Did you have experience landing podcasting sponsorships prior to Unthinkable?
JA: I had not sold sponsorships directly, no, but my business was built on selling to clients for larger sums: speeches, consulting engagements, original series I’d develop for clients. Because I was familiar with how to sell a brand something that costs a lot of money and isn’t a direct response-style engagement (e.g., a product or result you purchase), I was familiar with how to sell sponsors. It’s pretty similar. You sell the vision you have for a community and your leadership of that community—and how the brand plugs into that—and the raw reach numbers become supportive. You also sell your personal platform in this story, not just the podcast. What are you doing across your audience in their life beyond shipping them episodes each week? That’s everywhere a sponsor could appear, too.
Don’t limit yourself to your podcast alone. If you do, you’ll get transactional advertisers. If you want to work with a true sponsor who isn’t as finicky about immediate, measurable results AND who shares your vision for the audience, think about your entire creative platform and your role in a community you serve as its leader, curator, and trusted supporter.
How did you land The Juice as your show’s sponsor? Did they initiate, or did you?
JA: I began putting out feelers privately to folks I know who are either in sponsorship sales for big marketing events or who may be in my network and interested in sponsoring me themselves. I decided to tweet that I was seeking sponsors, and their VP of marketing DMed me to say he would be interested in seeing a media kit.
That’s another huge part of this: Have a beautifully designed media kit. Here’s mine. Steal away! The best advice I’d have is to tell your own story, using the structure that accentuates your strongest asset. My strongest asset is the premiumness of what I do—the quality of the production, the type of audience, the passionate replies. If I tried to sell pure reach to a business crowd to general business brands, I wouldn’t be telling the whole story of the value of my show and overall creative platform.
How did The Juice find you and what do you think made your podcast and their company so compatible?
JA: Honestly, and I hope this provides more hope than concern for people reading this: It wouldn’t have happened without the years I’ve spent teaching the concepts I teach publicly. Having a strong stance on the business, creative, and marketing worlds, continually shipping my work, and building connections and trust, and THEN making an ask is the only path I know to “close a deal.”
But this means you don’t need a massive audience to close a sponsor. You need their trust. Sponsorships are more partnership-like than advertising, which is about selling inventory + a total reach number.
The Juice found me and instantly became a sponsor because (A) they trusted me from my body of work, and (B) they knew my opinions and beliefs because I share them constantly. We both hate the status quo of marketing. We both love the idea of original thoughts. We both hate algorithm gamers and believe in better experiences inside the content teaching work-related topics. They knew that before I pitched them.
Had The Juice sponsored a podcast before? If not, what was it like pitching to a sponsor entering a brand new advertising space?
JA: The Juice had never sponsored a podcast before, which helped me guide them. I would caution us to pay attention to the language. Are we seeking advertisers or sponsors? I seek sponsors. They are collaborative. They purchase the association, affinity, and public perception to support what their audience loves (in this case, my work). They are NOT buying inventory and ads, though ads are slotted into various places around my show and my platform.
Think of it this way: Does the brand in question talk about conversions? You’re talking to an advertiser. You want to find someone willing to discuss things like solving problems for the audience, changing the status quo for the better, or supporting a community—the same one you serve.
The Juice and I spent 90% of our pre-contract discussion talking about the industry and community we both serve, where it’s going, and why (and what we dislike/like), and 10% talking about my audience and dollars. This is why I steered them to other forms of value beyond the ads, like some custom content I create for them and monthly advisory calls I hold with their team.
If that ratio is flipped, and you’re spending 90% of your time with a brand talking about audience totals and dollars and cents, you’re probably talking about advertising, not sponsorship. Nothing wrong with that. Just know what you’re selling. Advertising is easier to sell, but it’s harder to execute well. It’s simple to understand (“your message here to X people”), but you compete with more places they could spend those dollars and will likely always struggle to prove your value unless your reach is genuinely huge and the math works out to sell their products or services.Sponsorships are harder to sell (“wait, is this advertising? A partnership? What?”) but easier to execute. You both believe in the same things and want to support each other mutually, so it feels like a partnership.
What are three do's and don'ts for other podcasters looking to close a sponsorship deal?
JA: Here’s my shortlist:
Don’t sell your audience. Sell your impact WITH that audience.
Spend lots of time capturing qualitative feedback you can share to show the power of your show.
Stop cold-pitching and start to build relationships with brands BEFORE you need anything from them. It's basic marketing 101: add value before expecting any in return. Make a list of brands you're an authentic fan of or use (or think would be a great fit) and become their biggest fan, get to know their team, and stop trying to transact them. After all, you don't want them to transact with you. You want a mutually beneficial relationship.
What are the benefits of going after one big brand sponsorship?
JA: I don't need to juggle too many things. I can operationalize this pretty easily. I can also support that one brand publicly, interacting on social media, for instance, and privately, as with my team advisory calls, and thus prove value to them in ways beyond selling ad inventory.
Mostly, however, I don't sell CPM. If I sold CPM, I would make a few dollars. Instead, I make thousands of dollars. Everyone is trying to make CPM work for them. We can choose to opt-out of that game entirely, but we have to be thoughtful about what we sell instead.
I sell time spent with a passionate, niche audience, affiliation with a premium show, and a position as a leader alongside myself in the community we both serve.
Any cons?
JA: I have to actually think about their brand and interact with them from time to time. I get why you'd want to simply sell inventory and batch-record ads and do nothing else. I never found that financially viable for a niche podcaster, nor most podcasters in general. It's definitely not as helpful long-term either, as you become a commodity on a list they can purchase, instead of a partner they cherish, help promote, and never want to lose. Said another way: someone they'd pay a premium to work with.
Has working with The Juice on Unthinkable opened the door to working with other brands? Are you interested in pursuing that or prefer to keep it simple?
JA: Yes, actually! Thanks to my involvement with existing sponsors, I have been able to close new deals faster. And more of these deals are coming inbound to me.
Anything else you’d like to add?
JA: The moral of my story is that it is very possible to sell a much more lucrative sponsorship, but you won’t do that without stepping out of the rat race of pure audience growth + CPM = revenue. You have to do what you do better than most: be creative.
Thank you, Jay!
➡️ Find Jay online at jayacunzo.com and find Unthinkable on your preferred player at pod.link/jay. He’s also a great follow on Twitter @jayacunzo, which is how I connected with him.
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🚨 NEW CLASS ALERT 🚨
I’m back with a 7-week class at Pandemic University starting January 15th to help you take your podcast to the next level in the new year. I freaking love teaching this class and helping my students workshop their projects; plus, you leave with a trailer and a marketing plan, and a lot of new tips and tricks. Come join me!
EDIT: Apologies! Due to an unforeseen conflict, we're postponing this course — but when it returns sometime in the new year, there will be a scholarship for folks from underrepresented groups.
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So… ROLL CALL! 🗣
Podcasters, what’s the #1 thing you’ve gleaned about successful sponsorships in the space?
Follow me @courtneykocak on Twitter and Instagram. For more, check out my website courtneykocak.com.