How to Make a Stellar Audio Drama as an Indie Podcaster 🎭
On producing fiction podcast City of Ghosts soup to nuts
Hello Besties!
My very first podcast was fiction — almost a decade ago, back in the early days of podcasting — and my collaborator and I had so much fun making it. Since then, I’ve been producing primarily chatcast style shows, but my recent artist rumspringa has got me noodling a lot more in the narrative direction, including fiction. Because of that… and because City of Ghosts is such a well-made indie pod, I’m thrilled about the wisdom and transparency co-creators Ryan Patch and Carina Green offered in their Q&A about how they made the show and what they learned in the process. Let’s get into it!
I read on your website that this was a pandemic project. How long had you been working on it prior to Covid, and how did the production find its legs when the lockdowns hit?
CG: We actually first started working on this project all the way back in 2018. Ryan and I went to a grad school screenwriting program together. He sent an email to our cohort mentioning that he was looking for more projects to direct and had become interested in podcasts as a cool storytelling medium. I happened to have fallen down the rabbit hole of fiction podcasts around that time, so I reached back out to him wanting to collaborate. We wrote the first four episodes very sporadically over the course of two years, then the pandemic hit, and I lost my job in March of 2020. Ryan and I realized that the silver lining of this difficult situation was that we now had more time to focus on finishing the show, and since a lot of actors were out of work, they might be more open to a smaller project that could be recorded at home.
We wrote the second half of the season in the next six weeks while in lockdown (something I don’t necessarily recommend, it was a lot of episodes to fit into a very short time frame) while Ryan worked on casting the show, and then moved into production in June of 2020.
Where did the idea for the plot initially come from, and why do you think it's a good fit for audio?
CG: I’ve always been fascinated by the idea of ghosts and places that have lots of liminal, otherworldly spaces to them. I thought it could be very interesting to use the lens of the supernatural to explore more human issues such as mental health, grief, and grappling with the nature of death itself. I mentioned New York in my initial pitch, and Ryan is a bit of an NYC nerd, so he gravitated toward delving into the city’s workings and its corruption and systems of power. Thus came the initial idea of: What happens if you investigate a murder with the help of the person who was killed? And from there, the story began to take on many more shades that you see in the finished product.
I think it was a good fit for audio because audio can be such an intimate medium. It exists sort of as a step between the fiction prose of novels and short stories and visual mediums such as film and television. Therefore, I thought that we could create an interesting and captivating world with a relatively fast-moving plot while also leveraging the nature of audio to slow down in places and delve into the characters more. You see that in the monologues that all three of the main female characters get throughout the show, which were honestly some of my favorite parts to write.
RP: Although Carina certainly had the initial idea for this show and setting it in NYC, I was immediately drawn to it through my own experience living in New York City. Walking the streets at night, sometimes I could really feel what I consider the weight of the city's history and the lives lived there, so exploring a haunted city really appealed to me. I also really liked how ghosts work on audio — you don't have to worry about them looking campy or too creepy or not creepy enough — they can just be voices, which I think works really well for the types of supernatural encounters we wanted to write.
I've done a lot of writing and podcasting with my long-time collaborator Sofiya Alexandra, and it's always nice to have someone to bounce ideas off. How did you divide and conquer the workflow?
CG: I agree, writing in a vacuum is nearly impossible! I took the role of the main writer for us, so I produced first drafts of all the episodes, which I would then send to Ryan. He would read them over and leave comments/suggestions on what could be changed or improved, and then I would make adjustments on a new draft, and we’d repeat the process until we felt satisfied.
We also had instances where I handed over entire scenes and sections of episodes to Ryan because I felt his background and experience would make him the better choice for tackling those pieces upfront, especially parts of Talia’s world. For example, I have never been to a New York City gala, but Ryan has.
When we hit our six-week breakneck writing period, we also started having weekly calls to talk through episodes, which helped a lot. It’s strange how it works, but often physically talking with another writer about a story leads to more breakthroughs and inspiration than just exchanging comments back and forth.
You're an indie show, but you managed to assemble a highly-effective team to help with production, sound design, music, and casting. How did that all come together?
RP: A big part of the success of this was that I work in film and video on a day-to-day basis, producing docu-style pieces. I have a lot of experience with audio recording, editing, sound design, and music. Additionally, I have built relationships, like the one with our post audio house Ott House Audio, which was extremely helpful in bringing this vision to life.
Although using both my skills and network to make a podcast was a completely new experience for me, there’s no denying having experience with the craft does help. I don’t want to discourage anyone without experience from making their own podcast — because in the end, telling a good story is still the heart of it, and podcasts are a great entry point — but I also can’t lie and say that working every day with the tools and with experienced practitioners of the craft isn’t helpful. Expertise matters!
Finally, having a bit of money does help. Everyone worked for vastly deflated rates on this, but even then, the show cost tens of thousands of dollars to create. I don’t want to blow smoke and say, "anyone can do it." This was money that I saved up over the several years leading up to producing this show.
That being said, we more or less approached this in the least efficient way we could — we made a very large-scale, large-cast drama right off the bat. Folks smarter than me (like The Bright Sessions or Wolf 359) did something very intelligent by beginning very, very contained — with stories that could be told between one or two people, in a conversation, in quiet rooms. The shows built their audience, expanded the world slowly, and then (once they had support) pushed into larger stories with more sound design that required larger casts.
I thought you did an excellent job casting this show. All the characters were well-cast, and I always love when Kevin Pollack pops up in something. What was your casting strategy, and how did you land such a terrific ensemble?
RP: A great question to come right after the former one because this is an example of something for which I didn’t have any inside track or contacts! We hired casting directors, Eisenberg Beans Casting, who went out to all of our actors’ agents. We had to make a compelling pitch deck and pitch each actor’s team individually on joining our cast. So, in this case, it’s important to know the proper way to move through these relationships in order to assemble your ideal cast.
Casting directors are a must, in my opinion. They are the first “proof” that your show has that it might be good — agents know that they have done the research and read your script and vetted you as a director, and understand that a good CD will not bring them something that is not right for their client. But beyond the relationships and general intuition, CDs are essential because they have an incredible mental rolodex of actors who might be great for certain roles. I knew of some of the actors that we cast and asked for by name (for instance, Golshifteh Farahani). But others I wasn’t tracking and was delighted to have them brought to my attention (like Erin Darke, for example, who I now want to work with on everything that I ever make).
Marketing is always a challenge for indie podcasters. I know you've been working with Lauren and Arielle at Tink (love them). How did you approach the launch and ongoing PR for the show? Any tips for other independents looking to launch and market a podcast, especially in the fiction genre?
RP: Our launch and ongoing PR were not as put-together as we’d like them to be at first. We were completely new to the podcasting world, so the launch was sort of what we could cobble together from friends of friends who write about podcasts and some promos that we paid for through Podcorn. We were extremely fortunate to get a write-up in Variety — but I would be lying if I said this happened just because the show was good. We did hire a PR representative who worked very hard to pitch us, working through her network of relationships.
Obviously, she took us on because she believed in the show, and Variety picked us up because they found the show and story to be good, but my point is that press coverage doesn’t just happen, and it's important to know that. As we’ve continued into 2022, we’ve been working with Tink Media, who we’re very pleased with. They’ve helped us to continue to build our audience and get in touch with some awesome shows to do feed and promo swaps. Our only regret is that we didn’t find out about them sooner. We definitely discovered that you really need to have your marketing and PR teams in place to begin marketing your show 2-3 months before its release, so they can reach out to publications and writers.
It’s an unfortunate reality that good content, many times, doesn’t rise to the top because there is just so much noise. Production tools have been democratized, but big studios and networks still use their money and power to suck up all of the oxygen in the room/podcast community for their new shows. I strongly believe that my skills and talents are best used in creating a show, and I believe in paying others to do things outside my core competency. Sometimes that means paying people who already have the relationships in the world that you need to be in! I don’t believe this is too corporate or commercial — it's actually great because it allows you to bring more people onto your team who are really good at what they do, and you don’t have to be everything to everybody.
As a rule of thumb, Hollywood usually spends the same amount as a film’s budget on its marketing. And I think that’s right for podcasts as well. You’re going to all the effort to make this podcast — keep some money for marketing. Even if all you pay for is a microphone and a SquadCast subscription, it’ll be worth it to get a cheaper mic in order to direct some of that money towards getting your podcast out there. As the old adage goes, if a podcast falls in the woods and no one hears it, did it ever even happen?
Any other wisdom or advice for eager folks new to the audio fiction space?
RP: As much ink is spilled on gear, cast, marketing, hosting platforms, I think it's essential to stay focused on the fact that your story should come first. All that other stuff is secondary to having a good story. Learn how to write good drama - make the audience ask “what is going to happen next?” If you cannot inspire that feeling in an audience, your podcast will be a failure.
CG: Podcasting is a shifting, growing space but what initially drew me to it was how accessible it felt compared to the more rigid structures of film, television, and publishing. I came across fantastic fiction podcasts like Gone that were written, directed, narrated, and produced entirely by a single person. So while it often isn’t easy to make a podcast, as you can see from some of our answers, I also wouldn’t get too intimidated if you have a story that you really want to tell (though, as Ryan said in his answer, make sure it’s a compelling one). Unlike us, start small if you can and try to put it out in the world.
Thank you so much, Ryan and Carina!
➡️ Stay in touch with Ryan Patch on IG and Twitter, and follow Carina Green on Twitter.
➡️ Check out their pod City of Ghosts for delightfully supernatural listening experience.
Google Podcast Creator Program 2022 - Applications are open! The only bummer is that you have to pause your show for the duration of the 20-week program.
SiriusXM Went All in on Stitcher, So What Happened? - Fascinating article on the aftermath of SiriusXM’s Stitcher acquisition and how that basically killed beloved comedy network, Earwolf.
YouTube is Creating Better Tools & Monetization for Podcasting - Exciting news! Especially for indie podcasters who’ve recently started publishing podcast episodes to YouTube separately (hi, me). I totally agree with this Alban Brooke tweet; pulling from the RSS feed seems like an optimal setup for podcasters.
Producer, This Is Uncomfortable (full-time) at Marketplace | NY, LA or Remote
Broadcast News Writer/Producer (part-time) at Democracy Now! | New York City, NY or Remote
Podcast Host (part-time) at City Cast Las Vegas | Las Vegas, NV + Remote
Podcast Host, Life Kit (full-time) at NPR | Washington DC
Co-host, True Crime/History (full-time) at Kast Media | Los Angeles, LA
Audio Producer (full-time) at City Cast DC | Washington DC + Remote
Multiple Positions (full-time) at Lemonada Media | Remote
Producer, Narrative Audio
Supervising Producer - Narrative Audio
Audio Engineer - Weekly Content
Producer - Weekly Content
COVER STORY: POWER TRIP - I just finished season one of Cover Story: Power Trip. The new episodes this year are fantastic. I’m interviewing co-host Lily Kay Ross next week, and I’m really looking forward to it. Start here with episode one.
AN ARM AND A LEG: FIGHTING WITH HEALTH INSURANCE IS EASY (FOR JACKIE FOX) - Congratulations to An Arm and a Leg and host Dan Weissmann for winning the Ambie for Best Indie Podcast!
Sofiya and I welcome Ukrainian journalist and radio host turned civilian soldier Yuriy Matsarsky for our latest episode. Yuriy joined us from the literal trenches in Kyiv to share how he’s adjusting to his new daily life in the Territorial Defense Forces, the effects of propaganda on some of his former colleagues in Russia, how you can actually help Ukraine, and so much more. It’s the first interview we’ve done where the guest had to pick up their gun immediately after... really puts your privilege into perspective. And as if he didn't have enough on his plate serving his country, check out Yuriy’s new podcast, Fighting for Ukraine.
So… ROLL CALL! 🗣
Introduce yourselves, fiction podcasters! I want to get to know you and beef up my listening queue. If you don’t have a fiction pod yourself, what’s your fave? Comment (or reply) and let me know!
Follow me @courtneykocak on Twitter and Instagram. For more, check out my website courtneykocak.com.
Love Podcast Bestie! Thanks for the time you take to pull together interesting and actionable content. Jodi Murphy, Dorktales Storytime Podcast