A Master Class from Ira Glass & Michael Lewis 🤓
Timeless Podcasting Advice 101, courtesy of Hot Docs University
This week, I watched a video of Ira Glass interviewing Michael Lewis at Hot Docs Podcast Festival 2022. I was inspired to sit down for their impromptu master class after seeing a tweet about it. In fact, I saw so many great Twitter reviews of this year’s Hot Docs panels that I’m tempted to buy a digital pass — replays are available through February 28th! — and this was the perfect preview. It’s available for free on YouTube if you want to watch it for yourself. (It’s worth it just to hear Ira make fun of the audio tropes he finds cliché!)
Their conversation was delightful. Watching Ira Glass interview in real-time is a treat, and I always love listening to artists reflect on their process and how they feel about their work. In this case, quite a bit of their convo was dedicated to critiquing their old work. It’s basically a long-form version of Ira’s famous quote:
Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, I wish someone told me. All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But there is this gap. For the first couple years, you make stuff, it's just not that good. It's trying to be good, it has potential, but it's not. But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is why your work disappoints you. A lot of people never get past this phase; they quit. Most people I know who do interesting, creative work went through years of this. We know our work doesn't have this special thing that we want it to have. We all go through this. And if you are just starting out or you are still in this phase, you gotta know it's normal, and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you will close that gap, and your work will be as good as your ambitions. And I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I've ever met. It's gonna take a while. It's normal to take a while. You've just gotta fight your way through.
I always share this bit of wisdom when I teach my podcasting class. I mean, if Ira Glass and Michael Lewis are embarrassed by their early work — including Michael's renowned 1989 book Liar's Poker, which is still taught at universities — it's unavoidable. Thus, the rest of us need to get comfortable missing the mark on our own come-ups. And noting flaws in past creations isn't all bad; it can be a reassuring measure of process. I'm a (recovering?) perfectionist, but there's a certain sense of pride when I look back and see how far I've come over the past five or ten years.
Their whole exchange was full of sage gems like that. My other favorite takeaways were:
How authors like Michael and Malcolm Gladwell are reimagining what it means to produce a modern audiobook, making greater use of sound design, etc.
Ira hilariously shared his sentiments (and mine!) about how offensive it is that non-podcasters — other writers, celebrities, and even former Presidents like Obama — are managing to be both good at their own jobs AND good at his. Preach! 😂
Michael says he was surprised by how much "the medium rewards emotion, much more so than print." That's so true — there is a huge pay-off in audio having people in an emotional state. The sound and tone of someone's voice is worth minutes of exposition, and moments that evoke laughter or tears are gold.
Michael notes that podcasting as a medium tolerates endless digression… you can definitely overdo it, but that IS a superpower of audio.
Ira mentioned that he goes through phases in his work, sometimes using more anecdotes than usual or reverting back to a simple structure. I love this kind of playfulness and aversion to stock procedural storytelling from an industry vet.
Michael comments that negative feedback is usually less about the specific issue being raised and more that there's a problem somewhere (although not necessarily there) — the person giving the note has identified smoke, and now it's your job as the creator to figure out the source of that fire.
Ira's advice to young podcasters and journalists is just run at the thing that is magnetic to you, the subject that you can't stop thinking about. I think that's sound advice for creatives of all ages: Let your passion guide you.
None of these are earth-shattering revelations, but perhaps that’s why it's such soothing advice. It's validation for what I already know—and probably you too—stated by virtuosos of their craft. And despite my grumblings about "everyone getting into audio," it's exciting that the medium is in vogue enough that established writers like Michael Lewis are using it to experiment with new modes of storytelling and rediscover their early work… and who knows, maybe fall in love with it all over again?
Spotify Acquires Podsights and Chartable - If you’re not familiar, Podsights is a podcast ad measurement and attribution service, and Chartable is an analytics and audience insight platform. Spotify’s goal with these acquisitions is to make it easier to track ad measurements and audience insights for advertisers and publishers.
Whoa, A LOT of Podcasts are Discovered on YouTube - I was disturbed to learn that 55% of “super listeners” listen to podcasts on YouTube in general and 20% listen to podcasts through YouTube most often, according to Edison Research and Ad Results Media’s “Super Listeners 2021” report. And it gets worse: 19% of Super Listeners say they most frequently discover podcasts via YouTube, ahead of recommendations from friends and family and searching the internet. Those statistics get a big <SHUDDER> from me, an indie podcaster who previously thought that publishing audio to YouTube with a static image was kind of a dumb idea. Caila Litman recapped the report in a handy Twitter thread.
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THE TROJAN HORSE AFFAIR - PART 1: THE LETTER IN THE BROWN PAPER ENVELOPE - I've heard rumblings about this new podcast from the Serial team on social media, so I had to check it out. The topic is different than I was expecting based on the title… I think I was initially getting The Da Vinci Code vibes (lol), but it's way more subtle and consequential than that (in my humble agnostic opinion). The first episode hooked me; I'll be back for more.
FILMS TO BE BURIED WITH, WITH BRETT GOLDSTEIN - #39 CAMILLE UCAN - I hadn't listened to this podcast yet, mainly for petty reasons, like "how dare this guy be good at everything, he can't also be good at podcasting!" (Alas, he is.) However, I put my petty bullshit aside and listened to Camille Ucan's episode after Google News repeatedly served me this Mashable article by Nicole Gallucci because the algorithm knows that I too have death anxiety, which apparently goes by the official term thanatophobia. Verdict: I should have listened sooner because I love Brett and Camille and their bloody Britishisms. (I’m gonna start saying "mad" every other sentence, it's fucking charming!) Still hate death, but what are you gonna do about it?
This episode was our Galentine’s Day (and Valentine’s Day) special about the history of a gal’s best friend: the vibrator. It’s a horny romp through the ages, from Cleopatra to Sex and the City — and beyond.
For the 3rd episode of our Mind Trip series, Sofiya interviews me about my first ayahuasca experience (two ceremonies over the course of a weekend), my intentions, post-ceremony integration, and so much more! This convo gets pretty vulnerable…
Thanks to Shreya Sharma of Inside Podcasting and Lauren Passell of Podcast The Newsletter for the recent Private Parts Unknown shout-outs!
This is a brand new show from two of my friends: former Marvel attorney (and my lawyer!) Paul Sarker and Lola Media founder/entertainment enthusiast Mesh Lakhani. This show will give you a primer on the business (and legal) side of show business and take you beyond the catchy headlines to what's really going on behind the scenes. I helped develop the concept and sound, and get the show off the ground. I'm excited to see where they take it from here.
P.S. I’m officially stepping away from all work-for-hire as a day-to-day producer to focus on my own projects, but I really enjoyed doing development on this show. I’m toying with launching a consultation service down the road, so if you ever find yourself in need of my development prowess, reach out. ✨
So… ROLL CALL! 🗣
Did you attend any of the Hot Docs discussions this year? If so, what were your favorite takeaways?
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